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Old 06-21-2016, 07:11 AM
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SteveO SteveO is offline
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Gas in the Oil

Okay, so I ride all summer and fall. At the end of my last ride, I close the petcocks, run the carbs dry, and put it in the garage. Few months later, it's Spring. I pull it out and (1) the tank is empty, and (2) there is 1/2 gallon of gas in the oil and (3) (probably from trying to start it) the air cleaner is soaked in fuel! HOW and WHY did this happen.

I changed the oil, put in new gas, and it fired right up. No carburetor problems, no gas leaks, and it seems that there is no new gas in the oil. I don't know what to fix, and how to prevent this from happening again.
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Old 06-21-2016, 07:40 AM
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The petcocks are not completely stopping the fuel. These get hard as a rock and worn allowing the fuel to continue to drip through them.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detai...523-00-00.html

If the other internals of the petcocks are all good. Replacement of these should stop it properly.

KURT
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Old 06-21-2016, 08:05 AM
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Tarheeltriple Tarheeltriple is offline
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To get fuel in the oil two things must happen.

1st fuel MUST flow thru the petcocks, if you turned them off they must be leaking, internally you need to rebuild them.

2nd to get fuel in the oil one or more of the needle vales must have stuck open. This may have happened because of
1- dirt under the needle seat,
2- 2-needle not seating, or
3- 3-float stuck.
When you drain the fuel from the cabs the floats some times stick in the down or open position.

If the bike is not leaking fuel in the oil now it was probably a stuck float or some dirt under the needle seat and by running it you jarred it loose.

But you still have a petcock that is leaking fuel thru the valve internally that needs to be rebuilt.
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Old 06-21-2016, 08:04 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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Hey SteveO,

Folks have covered most of the points of failure. Your signature says it's a SPECIAL, but you didn't specify whether you still have the Octopus vacuum controlled fuel valve or not?

If you have the Octy, then you have yet another failure point, because the Octy isn't supposed to let fuel flow to the carbs when the engine isn't running, no vacuum getting to the control valve to open it. The valve can get stuck, spring sprung, etc.!

When the carbs flood, fuel can flow both forward into the engine, but also backwards into the airbox soaking your filter!

So...yep, petcocks ARE leaking, and then carb floats/valve/seats not working sealing which is the second line of defense against the fuel flowing into the engine IF the petcocks leak...and so since you did get fuel in the oil, then the carbs aren't sealing. As stated when the carbs are dry, floats can drop so far, and IF the drop tang isn't set right, the float can drop so far that the float valve can come out of the seat too far and then get cocked at an angle which can then prevent the float from floating and moving the seat needle back up against the seat to seal!

Stuff happens, and so that's why some folks will put a SHUT OFF valve INLINE of the fuel line between petcock and carbs as another stopgap security measure!

You also didn't mention whether you had added any preservative/treatment to the fuel prior to shutting down and storage, so ethanol fuel can gum/varnish and stuff quicker than pure non-ethanol fuel.

T.C.
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Old 06-22-2016, 10:05 AM
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Thanks to all. It seems that the main theme is the petcock(s). I do believe that one was bad. When I pulled it out and turned the fuel on, one was very easy to turn; much easier then ever. However, a few days later when I moved it, it felt fine again. Maybe it dried out over the winter and with new gas on it, the rubber swelled up to normal again. Anyway, I got a rebuild kit for it.

TC: if by octopus you mean that rectangular device mounted in front of the carbs, yes the vacuum device is still there. Nothing leaking from it, though. Seems to be working now, as after my oil change the bike ran "great". Maybe at the end of the season I should drain the fuel?

I will run it every day for a week, then change the oil again. A New, unrelated problem; the oil filter bolt is torqued so hard I can't get it off to change the filter. I'm afraid of stripping those aluminium threads. I have to yell at the shop that did my last oil change.

Steve
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Old 06-22-2016, 07:31 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveO View Post
Thanks to all. snip

TC: if by octopus you mean that rectangular device mounted in front of the carbs, yes the vacuum device is still there. Nothing leaking from it, though. Seems to be working now, as after my oil change the bike ran "great". Maybe at the end of the season I should drain the fuel?
Steve
Hate to say it Steve, but your Octy DID leak, because the fuel lines go to it before they go to the carbs. It's NOT supposed to let fuel flow when the engine isn't running. So, your Octy leaked.....OR...now that I think about it, the leaky petcocks may have leaked INTO the PRIME port/spigot which then bypasses the Octy valve and flows directly to the carbs!

AND since the carbs flooded, the valve seat/needles weren't sealing either. Glad it's running, but aside from the petcocks, you'll want to find out if your float valves/seats are
not set to drop too far when low/empty.

There are a bunch of threads that are engaged by the oil filter bolt, so it's doubtful that you will strip the threads, but you can ear up the corners of the hex head of the bolt. Several techniques have been suggested, from using a small pipe wrench, others say take a slightly smaller 6 sided standard socket to hammer up onto the head of the bolt, or weld a large nut to it, etc.!

T.C.
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Old 06-22-2016, 08:10 PM
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One more interesting thing to note is that if it sat on the side stand it will leak out of the airbox, but if left on the center stand it will leak into the cylinders. Others may disagree with me, but I have seen it far to many times to bother.
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Old 06-22-2016, 08:42 PM
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One more interesting thing to note is that if it sat on the side stand it will leak out of the airbox, but if left on the center stand it will leak into the cylinders. Others may disagree with me, but I have seen it far to many times to bother.
I had forgotten about that, but as someone mentioned here about putting a 2x4 or such under the front wheel AFTER up on the centerstand to help raise the front,drop the rear to help the fuel to run back into the airbox if it floods instead of into the intakes! YMMV.

T.C.
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Old 06-23-2016, 07:16 AM
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Lots of great feedback Ö.. thanks to all.

Thinking about it, Iím pretty sure this is not the 1st time Iíve had this problem. Twice before over the years I had a similar issue at the beginning of a season. This is the first time I attacked it myself; the other times I had someone pick it up and ended up paying for a 4-carb-rebuild. From the way it is running now, Iím not sure they were necessary. Once it is running I have had problem-free summers.

T.C.: The petcock rebuild kit did include the rubber gasket that must be for that Octopus vacuum device, so Iíll change that out too. But What is the prime port/spigot, though; and could that mean the Octo is ok?

Also, I did order a new Oil Filter Housing bolt; but Iím still afraid Iíll break the one that is torqued on there.

Rasputin: I always keep the bike on the center stand when Iím not using it; especially over the winter.

TopCat: I will try the 2x4 under the front tire.

All: As you probably figured, Iím no mechanic. Iíve done some minor repairs and tune-ups in the past, but as I get older I just donít have the time or energy anymore. Otherwise, Iíd have gotten the ď350Ē back on the road by now.
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Old 06-23-2016, 08:43 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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Steve,

The petock has 2 spigots on it, the rear one is the regular ON and Reserve outlet. The front one is for the PRIME function, that when selected on the petcock supplies fuel thru that spigot into the fuel hoses that bypass the OCTY valve via the T fittings in the hoses and goes directly to the carbs. SO...if the petcock leaked out of those spigots then the fuel could go to the carbs EVEN if the Octy was/is working properly.

Okay, you have the spare filter bolt, so don't worry about breaking the old one. Some folks have just CUT the head of the bolt off, slipped the filter cup down off and then just used a vice grips or pipe wrench to remove the remaining part of the bolt!

T.C.
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  #11  
Old 11-18-2016, 07:54 AM
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SteveO SteveO is offline
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Gas in the Oil - No More

Well, its been a while since I added to this thread.

The resolution was (1) rebuild the pet-cock, (2) change the oil 3 times to get all the gas out, (3) "never" put the pet-cocks on PRIME, and (4) had a good summer of riding. Also, I finally got that oil filter off; replaced the bold and the cover (and, of course, the filter).

Had some good rides, and I monitored the oil level to make sure that gas was not still getting in there; and it looks good.

Had it running last night ... it purred nicely. I wanted to ride, but its just too cold for my old bones.

I'm going to try to run it in the garage every two weeks or so during the winter, and i'm already counting down the days until the spring.
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:48 AM
ERM83 ERM83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveO View Post
Well, its been a while since I added to this thread.

The resolution was (1) rebuild the pet-cock, (2) change the oil 3 times to get all the gas out, (3) "never" put the pet-cocks on PRIME, and (4) had a good summer of riding. Also, I finally got that oil filter off; replaced the bold and the cover (and, of course, the filter).

Had some good rides, and I monitored the oil level to make sure that gas was not still getting in there; and it looks good.

Had it running last night ... it purred nicely. I wanted to ride, but its just too cold for my old bones.

I'm going to try to run it in the garage every two weeks or so during the winter, and i'm already counting down the days until the spring.
Right on, man! i'm going to rebuild the petcocks on both of my bikes this winter, just as a safety measure. the SG tank needs...probably new ones (my picture of it on here...it has my SF tank on it, because i just wanted to ride after slaving on it). Also, i wanted to note that my SG sat in a garage for 15 years, UNUSED, on it's side stand. everything on the left side was way more corroded/janky on that side, which tells me that that was the side more exposed to weather. the front left caliper piston was REALLY bad....got that fixed recently.

what i meant to say before i went off about this thing (haha), was that when resurrecting the SG, i went to change the oil, and it REEKED of gas. turns out, yep...it was on it's side-stand, left-hand-side exposed to the elements...FOR 15 YEARS. WITH THE PETCOCKS ON. i actually have to get the frame patched where the side-stand bolts in because of that. i just made a thread about that recently, and MAN...i actually lucked out. getting that fixed in the next couple of days.

back to a similar issue to yours:i put the octy and freshly rebuilt carbs from my 79' on, cleaned the system, and it (for the most part) runs like a beast. as long as you flushed the oil out well, you should be good! glad your horse is running!!

EDIT: failed to mention that the needles were stuck. actually, those carbs were the worst i've ever seen. COMPLETELY frozen up.
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Last edited by ERM83; 11-18-2016 at 11:51 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11-18-2016, 02:46 PM
motoman motoman is offline
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ERM83, until replacing needed pieces, park bike on centerstand and rock backwards till rear wheel hits. Then place a 2x4 under front wheel. This'll keep the fuel from running forward into cyls., by the rings and into oil pan.
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Old 11-19-2016, 09:07 PM
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Gas in the oil is easy. Wanna impress me? Get oil in your gas somehow.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:07 PM
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Gas in the oil is easy. Wanna impress me? Get oil in your gas somehow.
That happens to me every time I park the bike up side down
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