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Old 12-26-2017, 09:27 PM
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clutchless upshifting causing issues?

For a few years now, I have been upshifting by applying upward pressure on the shift lever and quickly backing off the throttle without using the clutch where it falls into the next gear. The method has worked fine-until now. My tranny started to rebel against this method today and is shifting harder. Does this clutchless shifting do damage?
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2017, 12:01 AM
motoman motoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XJkid View Post
For a few years now, I have been upshifting by applying upward pressure on the shift lever and quickly backing off the throttle without using the clutch where it falls into the next gear. The method has worked fine-until now. My tranny started to rebel against this method today and is shifting harder. Does this clutchless shifting do damage?
Can if continued. It can prematurely round off the engaging 'dogs' of each gear and end up causing transmission not staying in gear with the notorious jumping in and out of gear. This will mean you'll have to remove lower tranny shaft assembly, remove gears and dremal- grind the dogs back square-edged. Learn to shift SMOOTHLY using the clutch and save yourself ALOT of unnecessary work!
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post
Can if continued. It can prematurely round off the engaging 'dogs' of each gear and end up causing transmission not staying in gear with the notorious jumping in and out of gear. This will mean you'll have to remove lower tranny shaft assembly, remove gears and dremal- grind the dogs back square-edged. Learn to shift SMOOTHLY using the clutch and save yourself ALOT of unnecessary work!
I've been upshifting without using the clutch for years. Done properly it will cause no issues.power shifting is no more damaging than any other method.

It will cause damage if gears are continuously missed and grinding occures. 21st and 2nd gears are a known issue with the XS/XJ no matter.
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Last edited by BA80; 12-27-2017 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:03 PM
motoman motoman is offline
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Originally Posted by BA80 View Post
I've been upshifting without using the clutch for years. Done properly it will cause no issues.power shifting is no more damaging than any other method.

It will cause damage if gears are continuously missed and grinding occures. 21st and 2nd gears are a known issue with the XS/XJ no matter.
'Done properly' IS the key phrase! By XJkid's statement, he is NOT following the proper sequence(absolutely no shifter pre-load!)
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Last edited by motoman; 12-27-2017 at 04:09 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2017, 06:49 PM
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Engines is engines and gears is gears. I learned to ride Limey shift ('64 Bultaco) on my first bike, then relearned all over again for modern bikes, cars, trucks, split axles, whatever.

You need some experience to get the feel for the engine and drive train, then figure out what makes it a happy shift with a smooth change, not an unhappy shift with bent shift forks, stripped gears, a 'sploded transmission and/or a blown differential. Some of them are more than a little expensive and can be very difficult to rebuild afterward when you mess up. Don't do that.
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Old 12-27-2017, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by motoman View Post
'Done properly' IS the key phrase! By XJkid's statement, he is NOT following the proper sequence(absolutely no shifter pre-load!)
I am doing a "pre-load". I apply upward pressure (pre-load) and quickly back off the throttle.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2017, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by XJkid View Post
I am doing a "pre-load". I apply upward pressure (pre-load) and quickly back off the throttle.
Incorrect.....all the so called 'preload ' on shifter lever accomplishes is added tension on shifter return spring. 3 Phase's above statement explains it all fairly well.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2017, 04:49 AM
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Interesting. I've always assumed that power shifting was okay, just not down-shifting clutchless. I don't do it anyways, but still a good tid-bit to remember. Might I presume this info would not necessarily apply to more modern bikes with sychro-mesh and slipper clutches?
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2017, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Phase View Post
Engines is engines and gears is gears.

You need some experience to get the feel for the engine and drive train, then figure out what makes it a happy shift with a smooth change, .
This ^^^^^ is key to shifting clutchless on just 'bout anything.

Been there many times, car, truck, motorcycle, whatever, where cable or linkage broke or come apart in the middle of traffic, woods or too close to the job or home jus' figger it out and ride her on in

AND like Greg states been doin this for years on my all my bikes with no ill effects
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2017, 08:33 AM
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Preload to my mind is putting pressure on the shifter/gears anticipating that a reduction of power by chopping the throttle will cause the preload (pressure/tension) to allow the gears to change.

I.E while under power/load there is not enough tension/force to make gears change. However when the teeth are not under a drive load there is enough tension to make the change.

Simply taking up the slack on the shift return spring is exactly that, taking up the slack. It is not applying pressure/tension in the gear changing sense.

I will do clutchless shifting sometimes when short shifting up through the gears. Otherwise it seems more of a potential for problems than a benefit to performance on the street. YMMV.
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  #11  
Old 12-28-2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonz View Post
Preload to my mind is putting pressure on the shifter/gears anticipating that a reduction of power by chopping the throttle will cause the preload (pressure/tension) to allow the gears to change.

I.E while under power/load there is not enough tension/force to make gears change. However when the teeth are not under a drive load there is enough tension to make the change.

Simply taking up the slack on the shift return spring is exactly that, taking up the slack. It is not applying pressure/tension in the gear changing sense.

I will do clutchless shifting sometimes when short shifting up through the gears. Otherwise it seems more of a potential for problems than a benefit to performance on the street. YMMV.
Upshift or downshift, you don't really need to do more than pre-position so you're ready to shift. Preloading or taking up slack if your shifter/linkage is in good shape will wear the trans/shifter parts and it's a really bad habit to get into. When you hit a bump, eat a bug or Murphy just drops by to say, "Hello! Remember me?" you're unexpectedly in between gears and switching to glide.

Learn the engine RPM ranges for the gears and get the feel of the load on the drivetrain when you're accelerating, decelerating or cruising. The idea is to temporarily unload the gears, then match the engine RPM for the new gear while you shift.

You can practice at low speed on a deserted street or parking lot so you don't tear up parts or get turned into a semimetallic grease stain while you learn the machine.
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  #12  
Old 01-04-2018, 09:14 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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I was just "back" into my tranny for a 2nd Dremel fix on my 1st gear that past summer. I had done my original repair in 2000. I shift using the clutch, the later model years WITHOUT the kickstarter parts is what allows the gears to be a little more loose and allows for more wear, per 3Phase evaluation.

Preloading the shift lever would put some pressure on the shift drum which then puts pressure on the shift fork, which rubs against the gear as it's spinning, and so I could see this repeated process causing excessive wear on the shift fork tangs. Just shifting clutchless wouldn't necessarily cause this wear, but pressuring/preloading the shift lever could....IMHO.

XJkid, you say it's shifting HARDER, what exactly do you mean by that, that it doesn't slip into the next gear as easily/quickly, you end up misshifting or what? There is an alignment adjustment for the shift pawl and drum assembly, yours may be out of alignment so that the pawl isn't grabbing or rotating the drum completely like it should. See the tech tips for images and info on how to set/adjust the alignment, it's checked when trans is in 2nd gear, shift cover off.

T.C.
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2018, 06:45 AM
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I would think that 1st gear issues are caused by misadjusted clutch or slamming it into gear initially since the only shifting that takes place while the bike is moving for 1st is downshifting. Anyone trying to upshift into 1st without the clutch would most definitely have issues.
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Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

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80 SG Ol' Okie;79 engine & carbs w/pods, 45 pilots, 140 mains, Custom Mac 4 into 2 exhaust, ACCT,XS850 final drive,110/90/19 front tire,TKat fork brace, XS750 140 MPH speedometer, Vetter IV fairing, aftermarket hard bags and trunk, LG high back seat, XJ rear shocks.

The list changes.

Visit XS11.org too......
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  #14  
Old 01-05-2018, 03:16 PM
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On the later models without the kicker idler gear to help stabilize and damp the 1st gear wheel, every shift into 1st makes that stonkin' great gear wheel ring like a bell.

The ringing accelerates the wear on the soft bronze(?) bushing in the center of the 1st gear wheel that's supposed to let it sit pretty on its steel bushing on the transmission shaft. Eventually, the bushing wears enough to wobble slightly when it gets whacked into gear, not just ring.

When the bronze bushing wears enough that the 1st gear wheel can 'tilt' and the slots move away from the 4th gear dogs during a shift then it'll start rounding off the slots/dogs until they wear down enough to skip under load or pop out of gear.

I think the Yamaha rice counters figured that most of the transmissions would last long enough to clear the warranty period and they'd save saki money on kicker idler gear assemblies.
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1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #15  
Old 01-05-2018, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Phase View Post
On the later models without the kicker idler gear to help stabilize and damp the 1st gear wheel, every shift into 1st makes that stonkin' great gear wheel ring like a bell.

The ringing accelerates the wear on the soft bronze(?) bushing in the center of the 1st gear wheel that's supposed to let it sit pretty on its steel bushing on the transmission shaft. Eventually, the bushing wears enough to wobble slightly when it gets whacked into gear, not just ring.

When the bronze bushing wears enough that the 1st gear wheel can 'tilt' and the slots move away from the 4th gear dogs during a shift then it'll start rounding off the slots/dogs until they wear down enough to skip under load or pop out of gear.

I think the Yamaha rice counters figured that most of the transmissions would last long enough to clear the warranty period and they'd save saki money on kicker idler gear assemblies.
So it is a bushing thing? I guess I have always been lucky with all 4 of the xs11's I have owned. Never had transmission issues. I always use the clutch downshifting (except getting home once when I had a broken cable) and nearly always use it upshifting. I did notice that gear meshing is better without the clutch if shifting at lower rpm ranges...
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