Home arrow Forums



Go Back   XS11.com Forums > Repairs > Transmission

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-01-2004, 08:21 AM
TopCatGr58's Avatar
TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Portsmouth, Va.
Posts: 12,588
1st and 2nd gear Dremmel Fix Pt1


Tranny Fix 1st and 2nd Gears Dremmel Technique

A walkthru by TopCat
**Special thanks to Ken Talbot's pages**


Okay, this writeup is from a repair to the 1st and 2nd gears of an 82XJ, but will include information for the XS as well. There really is only a couple of external differences when working on the XJ vs. the XS for this purpose. Let's get started. I recommend the "Flip the bike on it's back" technique to work on the tranny, vs. hoisting or jacking the bike up and laying on "your" back. Aside from the pains in your back, possibly getting oil and dirt in your eyes, it's also very difficult to work with the shift forks, they like to fall out and it's a bit tough putting them back in as well in this position!
Preparation to flip the bike: remove the gas tank, either drain or remove the carbs to prevent the gas in the bowls from leaking out. Remove the seat, and if it has a high plastic grab rail on the rear attached to the metal seat grab rail(XJ specific) you'll want to remove it so that the weight will be directly on the metal parts just above the seat/fender. On the XJ, this creates a nice angle between the rear support and the handlebars, and prevents pressure from being exerted on the gauges. The XJ's square bars are or at least seem much stronger than the traditional round bars, and can easily support the bike's weight. On the XS, you might want to invest in a cheap pair of handlebars that you won't mind getting bent...if they do get bent under the pressure/force applied to them during the flipping process. You will also want to have some jack stands, or something that you can place under the frame rails where the gas tank was to support the weight of the bike to keep it up off the bars/gauges once it's flipped....mostly for the XS.

Drain the rear wheel differential fluid. Drain the engine oil, remove the oil filter cover as well. Plug the vent hose for the middle gear, or drain it also. Remove the controls from the handlebars, brake/clutch/mirrors, allowing them to dangle or tie them against the fork tubes. If you have a fairing, remove it, along with any turn signals/stalks on the side that you will be laying it towards, I perfered to lay it down on the left hand side, nearest the side stand. Also recommended having a nice old carpet to lay it on in your garage. Depending on your exhaust pipes, you may want to remove them, or at least the muffler section if worried about pressure on them when you lay it down.

Next, you'll need to loosen the nut/bolt that holds the driver's foot pegs, so that you can pivot them up out of the way to get access to the side covers, clutch and gear shift lever covers.
MAKE SURE YOU PUT IT IN 4TH GEAR, before removing the shift lever. This helps in the removal process later, and also for loosening the main clutch basket nut and the counter shaft bolt. Remove the clutch cable from the clutch lever, then remove the clutch cover, the gear shift foot lever and it's cover, then the internal shift lever(note the alignment of the 2 dots on the teeth between the shift lever and the shift pawl/lever assembly).

Now you need to remove the clutch basket. I've included several pictures showing the basket and the star pressure plate because this plate is very fragile and can easily be broken when putting it back together if you get it misaligned with the mounting shafts of the #2 pressure plate.
See pictures #10 and #11 below.


In #11, it shows the main clutch nut, it's locking washer which you'll need to bend down flat to allow loosening of this nut, it's supposed to be torqued on with 51 ft/lbs! This is where you need to put the piece of wood into the rear spokes to lock the clutch from turning.

Then take a torque wrench and turn it CCW to loosen. The Clutch Nut is a 27mm size socket!

There is a thick washer underneath the locking tab washer, and there is a large spacer washer behind the basket, along with a large collar washer/bearing that the clutch assembly slides on, just pay attention to how they fit together when you remove the basket.

"A tip"...take one spring and star plate bolt and put it back onto the clutch basket and finger tighten before pulling the basket, this can help keep the plates from shifting around too much and will facilitate putting it back onto the shaft later with more ease!!! While you're here, loosen the countershaft bolt and remove it as well.

It's also supposed to be at 51 ft/lbs!!

Now is when I flip the bike..remember to remove the wood!!! I was able to do this with just myself and my wife. I first layed it down on it's side, then I got an 8 foot long piece of 2x4 as a lever for the wife and placed it under the engine and frame near the rear of the engine. I grabbed the front wheel securely to keep it from spinning and the handlebars from twisting, then as I lifted the wheel putting the leverage pressure against the handlebars and rear seat support, the wife used the 2x4 and helped lift/push the bike up and over onto it's back, me doing the most stabilizing with the front wheel/handlebars assembly. If you have several friends around, it can be even easier, or use a hoist, chain lift if your garage is so equipped!?

On to Part 2>

Last edited by crazy steve; 06-20-2012 at 06:05 PM.
  #2  
Old 08-01-2004, 08:34 AM
TopCatGr58's Avatar
TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Portsmouth, Va.
Posts: 12,588
1st and 2nd gear Dremmel Fix Pt2


Tranny Fix 1st and 2nd Gears Dremmel Technique, Part 2


Now that it's on its back, you can proceed to removing the tranny pan. On the XJ, you'll want to remove the sidestand switch assembly, and the oil sensor, just 2 bolts and it slides out...has an o-ring fitting/seal, just lay the oil sensor and sidestand switch aside/tie them up out of the way, whatever!!

I also removed the oil pump, there are some metal collars around the bolts, don't drop them into the engine or loose them, and note how the gear meshes with the gear on the clutch side, that's the shift fork shaft and gear that meshes with the gears on the inside of the clutch basket. Next, remove the C-ring for the shift pawl and remove it.

Now, remove the C-ring that was beneath the shift pawl for the shift fork shaft. Note the torx bolts on the bearing/oil cover of the counter shaft on this side.

You will need a good quality Torx bit (T-30).

The one on the wrench is good...the splines are all the way to the tip, not rounded/crowned like the loose bit below!!!! These screws are locktited in. They will turn with a standard wrench, but a perfect grip/fitting bit is a must!! I sprayed carb cleaner into the recesses of the heads of the screws/bolts before putting the bit into it to further reduce the possibly of slippage due to oil. I also sprayed liquid wrench into the holes behind it from inside the tranny case...not sure if it really helped, didn't hurt.!! On a previous machine, while using the aforementioned "BAD" bit, I stripped one badly, was able to take a 1/4" drill bit and just drill the head out down to the shaft...then once I got the bearing cover off, I was able to grab the remaining piece of the screw/bolt with lockjaws and remove it, and replace with a new bolt/screw. Just an FYI! This shows the Counter Shaft Bearing removed!

Next, slide the shift fork shaft out slightly just enough to clear the most distant fork, that's engaging gear #5, and let the shift fork slide down away from 5th gear against the shift drum.

Also note the position of the shift drum and the slots the shift forks slide/fit into. Next, slide 5th gear out the side of the engine.


Next, you can pull the shift fork shaft the rest of the way out, allowing the other 2 shift forks to slide down into the engine. Also note the slot/notch that is cut out of the shift fork shaft near the gear.

The shaft has a notch very close to the gear as well, to allow it to only line up and slide back in all the way in only 1 position. This keeps the recessed notch towards the first countershaft gear called the "middle drive" gear, but it's the one closest to the side of the tranny case, then the actual 1st gear sprocket...and it rides on a collar bearing..be careful when pulling these two off after you remove the entire assembly from the tranny, they will just slide off the countershaft. Now you can slide the remaining countershaft gear assembly a bit towards the open bearing hole, allowing it to separate from the shift forks and away from the bearing, and to be pulled upwards and out of the engine.. .sometimes a slight rotation of the rear wheel will allow the gears to turn a bit to facilitate the movement of the other gears below the countershaft assembly. The middle gear sprocket and the actual 1st gear sprocket just slide onto the countershaft...1st gear rides on a collar bearing..be careful when pulling these two off after you remove the entire assembly from the tranny, don't forget the spacer washer.
Once you get the counter shaft assembly removed, and you slide off the other two loose gears(the middle drive and 1st gear), then you need a C-clip remover again to remove the large C-clip keeping the 4th gear which has the dogs that mesh with the 1st gear sprocket off. It's best/easier just to leave the other two sprockets/gears on the shaft. Now, even if you are doing this to repair 2nd gear, I highly recommend a close inspection of the 1st gear dogs and slots, and going ahead and giving them the dremmel fix as well...since you're already in there, and they "ARE" going to fail eventually!!!
Here are the numbers of the Dremmel stones I used. 8193 is the large stone for both working on the dogs of second gear.

(which are actually on the 5th gear sprocket), and also for the dogs of 1st gear(on 4th gear sprocket) provided they aren't worn as much as the ones in this picture.

For this particular repair of these dogs I actually used a cut off disc instead, and made cuts along the red lines shown in pic#24, removing 1 to 1.5mm of the dog. I used a caliper to measure the width of the dog, and then used that for the other 2 dogs, and tried to keep them very close to the same size, to better ensure that all 3 would make contact with the 1st gear slots when put back together. I also cut them at a slight angle to make them better fit with the slots and to help them stay together when engaged....see the following 2 diagrams for a better view and explanation of how to grind them. Again, just a very slight angle of a few degrees is all that is required.



For the slots of 1st gear,


I used Dremmel #455 which are actually chain saw sharpening stones, they are kinda long, but they will wear down, round off kinda quickly after only working on a couple of slots. So then I used a cut off wheel to cut of the rounded ends of these stones to get a nice flat cylinder shaped section again to save a little $ being able to reuse the remaining grinding stone that was still on the shaft of the bit! The 1st gear slots are the hardest to grind, since they are closed and don't go all the way thru the gear. The large diagram shows and talks about how much of the slot/shelf you need to grind, but using this small bit, you can get very close to the corners, and it's best to grind as wide an area as you can on this shelf, again following the diagram to attain that slight angle in the shelf. It's a little difficult to grind a perfectly flat shelf with a round bit, so turning the dremmel tool so that it's not exactly perpendicular to the gear....like swinging the motor end of the dremmel towards the center of the gear can help to allow you to slide it back and forth across the shelf as you grind, to help keep the shelf edge flat, otherwise, as you put pressure towards the gear, and downwards against the shelf, you can inadvertently grind a round spot into the shelf!! This gear is the only one that I held the gear in one hand, and the Dremmel in the other hand to better view the slots and control the angle and amount of pressure applied to the shelf during grinding.
The final Dremmel stone is #932, which is used to grind the slots of 2nd gear.

All of these pictures show the Dremmel tool grinding the gears, but except for 1st gear slots, the 4th gear/1st gear dogs and the 5th gear/2nd gear dogs and the 2nd gear slots were all clamped into a table vise for stabilizing while grinding, so you could have both hands to control the dremmel!!!! The stone for the 2nd gear slots is slightly larger than the actual slot when you first go to grind it, but just barely, and with a sturdy grip and the Dremmel at high speed, you can grind right into the middle of the slot first, then move it towards the contact end, again NOTE the slight angle of the Dremmel motor to create the undercut angle in the slot once you make contact. I also used an in/out movement of the tool/bit to spread the grinding affect over the entire length of the stone, which helps keep the stone the same size over it's total length, for more even grinds on subsequent slots, there are 6!!!!! ALWAYS wear protective eyewear during grinding!!! Again, please refer to the large diagram on the special techniques for grinding the different dogs and slots. After grinding 2nd gear slots, you'll want to spray/dip off the gear assembly to remove any grinding dust/metal shavings that will have been created. Then recoat it or dip it in engine oil before reassembling. HOWEVER, the threaded end of the shaft that gets the countershaft bolt screwed in it should be kept clean of oil, to ensure a good torquing and so it won't work loose!!

On to Part 3>
  #3  
Old 08-01-2004, 08:36 AM
TopCatGr58's Avatar
TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Portsmouth, Va.
Posts: 12,588
1st and 2nd Gear Dremmel Fix Pt3


Tranny Fix 1st and 2nd Gears Dremmel Technique, Part 3


Now, once that you've done all the grinding, it's time to put it all back together.

With all but the 5th gear on the shaft, you slide it back into position meshing the 1st gear shift fork onto the gear, then slide the shift fork shaft partly in to engage the shift fork and to hold it in place in the shift drum slot. Then you may need to use a piece of stiff wire bent at the end to grab the 2nd/middle shift fork and pull it up to align with the shift fork shaft and shift drum. Then slide 5th gear in from outside, pull up the last shift fork, and mesh it with the gear, and the shift drum, again using a wire to grasp the fork to pull it up, then slide the shift fork shaft thru this fork as well, and then out the side of the case, keeping the shaft slots aligned, you may need to rotate the rear wheel/shift drum during this process to get the gears to mesh with the others below the countershaft. I also recommend turning the rear wheel a bit to ensure that the gears will turn in the tranny and that you haven't gotten it wedged/binded up somehow, but that's doubtful, cause it won't/shouldn't go back together if they aren't meshing properly?!

Once you have all the forks in place, the countershaft in place, 5th gear back in, then you can put the countershaft bolt and washer on. Make sure that you push the counter shaft all the way towards the clutch area, the washer has to sit on/around that shaft before you put the bolt on, otherwise, the washer can get off center if it slides off the shaft and down onto the actual bolt shaft!!!! Once it's finger tight, then you can oil up and then remount the other bearing/oil cap for the other side of the countershaft, the holes will only line up one way. I also cleaned out the torx screw holes with carb cleaner and Q-tips beforehand, so that when you apply fresh locktite to the screws, they will work, and not just slip loose due to oil in the threaded holes!!

Once you have the torx screws back in and tightened, they don't need much torque, a few lbs since they are going to be locktited, then you can put your wood wedge in the rear wheel, and then tighten the countershaft bolt to 51 ft/lbs. You'll need to wedge the wood a little differently since you'll be applying torque in the opposite direction from when you loosened it!!! Next, replace the inner C-ring on the shift fork shaft keeping pressure on the gear end to keep it in place so it won't slide out, the slot for the C-ring on the shaft is very close to the case!! Now, you can replace the shift pawl and the outer C-ring onto the shift fork shaft. At this point, I enjoyed shifting the gears by hand while turning the rear wheel to see how the gears slide on the countershaft and mesh with the other gears, but since the engine isn't turning, sometimes the shift drum doesn't turn completely or thoroughly for each gear shift, so don't worry if it doesn't, just shift it back into 4th, or close to it and then proceed with the assembly.

The oil pump goes on next, using a rubber O-ring size: 15/16" O.D., 3/4" I.D. with 3/32" thickness which you can find at a hardware store vs. Yamaha. Just ensure that it's tucked into the recess of the pump, some folks recommend using a thin layer of grease to hold it in place. Then tighten the 3 allen screws ensuring that the gear meshes with the sprocket on the clutch side!! Then you may want to take some oil and pour it into the pickup screen, and turn the sprocket a bit to help reprime the pump. Then you're ready to put the tranny pan back on. Once you've got it and any other parts that needed replacing on the bottom, the Oil sensor/sidestand switch/spring assembly, then you're ready to replace the clutch basket.

Hope you remembered the spacer washer, the large collar bearing, then the actual basket with the single bolt and spring holding the other plates in place. Gently slide and rotate the basket to allow the plates to slide and mesh with the splines of the shaft, and the splines of the gear/sprocket on the bottom/inside edge of the basket to mesh with the oil pump/shift fork sprocket! Once, you've got that basket pushed all the way in towards the engine, and you are sure that the gears are meshing with the sprockets, then you can put the washer, locking washer and main clutch nut on, and tighten it down. Now, if you have trouble getting the clutch/friction plates to slide onto the shaft, you may have to loosen/remove the bolt/spring, but be forewarned, this allows the plates to slide around alot more, and you will need to rotate the clutch basket more to allow gravity to assist you in realigning the plates as you slide the basket onto the shaft!!!!

With the wood still in the rear wheel, tighten the main nut to 51 ft/lbs, then bend up 2 sides of the locking washer tabs against the nut, I used a large channel locks to squeeze the ends against the nut once I was able to get the ends slightly bent upwards. You don't want to use a screwdriver and press against the inside of the clutch basket, it's very brittle and delicate aluminum!! Okay, now remove the bolt and then replace the remaining springs, and then the star plate and the other bolts just enough to get them all started, you may have to press a little with your hand against the springs to get the bolts to make contact with the shafts. Pics #8 & 9 show how the plate looks before the retightening and torquing begins.


Pic #14 shows using a 10mm socket on a long extension like a screw driver, NO WRENCH attached,

and to slowly walk the star turning the bolts in 1/4 or 1/2 turn each following the points in a clockwise or counterclockwise direction. Using just your hand, and occasionally pushing on the star in the beginning can help to better center it and aling the notches over the ends of the shaft so as not to catch a lip(shown in previous page pix #10/11). Then continue this process hand turning the bolts until the star plate is fully recessed, and the bolts seat, you won't be able to turn them by hand anymore. Once you've reached this point, you can now get out your LOW SCALE torque wrench, and tighten the bolts in a cross hatch pattern to 7 ft/lbs....PHEW, that's the most scariest part!!!!

Now, it's up to you, whether you want to turn the bike over, or continue putting on the outer covers first. For the shift lever, be sure to align the dots on the sprocket/teeth end of the shift pawl and shift lever, make sure you get the ends of the return spring over the protruding shaft properly. Once you have it in place, then you can replace the shift cover. Also you can replace the clutch cover, I always put some oil on the Star pressure plate beforehand. Then check and readjust the clutch lever at the engine case per the directions. Flip the bike back onto its belly/wheels, unplug the middle gear vent hose, refill the rear wheel, and engine oil after replacing the oil filter and cover. Remount everything else and fire it up. Well, I hope this helps someone, feel free to PM/email me if you have any questions, and I'll "TRY" to answer them to the best of my ability!!
T.C.=TopCat
mailto:topcatgr(at)hotmail.com
Again, just want to say thanks to Ken Talbot for all of the expert information and diagrams and photos on his web pages, please check them out!!
  #4  
Old 02-05-2008, 06:05 PM
trbig's Avatar
trbig trbig is offline
Simply used to just post A LOT!
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ada, Oklahoma
Posts: 7,838
Marty had asked me some questions about moving the washer/spacer for the 2nd gear, so I thought I'd post some pics here explaining it. In the tech tips, TC also goes through this process, so just throwing in a few extra pics to help.

In this first pic, the motor is upside down and the rear at the bottom of the screen. Marked in order are:

A. This is the gear that drives the middle drive

B. 1st gear solid but with raised ribs to accept 4th gear dogs

C. 4th gear with dogs

D. 3rd gear

E. 2nd gear with slots

F. 5th gear with dogs




In the next pic, the gears are on the counter situated in the same way.




The next pic shows the 5th gear dogs slid back to show the slots in 2nd. You can also see the solid 1st gear I mentioned second from left in the pic.





5th gear and dogs removed from the shaft




On the shaft, there is a slot that a spring retaining clip fits in. So looking at it in order, there is the clip, a washer/spacer, and then the 2nd gear.




Here is a closer look. A. is the spring clip. B. is the washer/spacer.




So.... what you need to do is remove the spring clip, and the washer and gear can be removed from the shaft. Upon re-assembly, you'd put the washer on first, then the 2nd gear, then the spring clip goes back on. This will move 2nd gear just a touch closer to the dogs on 5th gear under operation. This has been shown to greatly help avoid future slipping problems.

This may be a bit mundane for some, but hope it helps someone.

Tod
__________________
Try your hardest to be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

You can live to be 100, as long as you give up everything that would make you want to live to be 100!

Current bikes:
'06 Suzuki DR650
*'82 XJ1100 with the 1179 kit. "Mad Maxim"
'82 XJ1100 Completely stock fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Bagger fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Motor/frame and lots of boxes of parts
'82 XJ1100 Parts bike
'81 XS1100 Special
'81 YZ250
'80 XS850 Special
'80 XR100
*Crashed/Totalled, still own
  #5  
Old 02-06-2008, 09:31 AM
Jerry's Avatar
Jerry Jerry is offline
XS & TRUE XJ GURU
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: De Beque, CO.
Posts: 2,939
A variation is to have a machine shop cut a relief in the side of the 2nd gear that faces the clip the same size/thickness as the washer, then add a 2nd washer to the mix...you end up with a washer on each side of the gear. This way the 2nd gear does not ride against the clip, which is a concern for some people. Problem is the washer is discontinued from Yamaha, so you have to find one out of a junked tranny or find another one that fits. I have not found the thread, but a list member made up a few or had a source, will have to search past threads.

Anyway, you still end up with 2nd / 5th gear closer together but the 2nd gear can't rub the clip. When I had the work done on my gear the cost was about $25.00. I had a junked tranny that was the source for the washer. I took the washer to the shop so they could get the dimensions of the 'pocket' correct. Here is a photo of the cut gear:



Only a few people have done this 'extra' fix, but I thought I would pass it along for anyone interested.
__________________
Jerry Fields
'82 XJ 'Sojourn'
'06 Concours
My Galleries Page.
2018 Colorado Rally.
"... life is just a honky-tonk show." Cherry Poppin' Daddy Strut
  #6  
Old 11-07-2013, 05:00 PM
bikerphil's Avatar
bikerphil bikerphil is offline
Master of XSology
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Broward County, S. Florida
Posts: 7,309
2nd gear washer swap...

__________________



79F - owned since '89 - FJ fork mod, solo seat mod, Dyna 3Ω's, Kerker, 14MM M/C (152K miles)
79SF - every day rider, solo seat mod, Brembo 16MM M/C, Accel 3Ω's, Supertrapp (115K miles)

"If it ain't broke, modify it"

25+ year XS11 owner

 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Integrated by BBpixel ©2004-2018, jvbPlugin