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  #1  
Old 07-27-2014, 05:54 PM
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3Phase 3Phase is offline
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Thumbs down Self-inflicted Oil Consumption

I completely ruined the XJ11 cylinders trying to rush the job to make it to the 2014 Canon City Colorado XS1100 Rally.

The #1 spark plug hole was destroyed when the spark plug shot out at a gas station in Beaver, Utah, on the way home from the rally in Canon City, Colorado. I tried to repair the hole with a defective self-tapping thread repair insert kit that had small bits of metal flashing left in the threads of the tap. For some reason I thought it was just sloppy black paint and the tap completely chewed up the aluminum and the repair insert would only grip the first couple of threads.

The cylinder head and valves are in good shape after roughly 80,000 miles on the head but have heavy carbon built up.

Not shown but none of the valve guides and seals are worn out or leaking oil.


DSC00069 by Scott_Ci, on Flickr


The pistons and rings are in good shape but built up a lot of carbon in only ~1,500 miles.

Pistons left to right:
#4, #3, #2, #1


DSC00065 by Scott_Ci, on Flickr


Extreme oil consumption -- up to 2 quarts in 60 miles -- was caused by rust and bad honing in the cylinder bores.

I don't think they can be saved so I totally messed up a good set of low-mileage XJ1100 cylinders.

Cylinder Compression PSI after the rally:
#1 120
#2 120
#3 90
#4 145


DSC00042 by Scott_Ci, on Flickr


The #3 cylinder is in sad shape and smoked heavily.

The hone marks and rust pitting seem to have oil burned in and filling them.


DSC00043 by Scott_Ci, on Flickr

.
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1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #2  
Old 07-27-2014, 08:15 PM
motoman motoman is offline
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Yea, unfortunately Scott, honed cyls. and used rings don't play well together. Didn't realize till later when you told me that the rings/pistons were also from the XJ. Hindsight being 20/20, should of left untouched and just transferred to your motor...hole for hole. My bad on that, as I should of been paying better attention to what ALL you were swapping, and could of warned of that being a no-no. Kinda the same as used lifters on a new cam being a difinite no-no..
Well, at least Columbo will live to roll again.
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  #3  
Old 07-27-2014, 08:23 PM
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cylinders

Do you think boring them to 1196 cc's would clean them up? Maybe someone could use them for the overbore. I had a good engine with about 40K on it, but the PO left it outside all winter with 2 (nos 3 & 4) spark plugs out, and on the sidestand. I have since used several engine parts, trans gears and shift forks, and other parts. If I could have found good cyls and a head, I would have bored them and rebuilt that engine. It was in an 80 MNS.
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  #4  
Old 07-27-2014, 10:25 PM
motoman motoman is offline
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Well, the part that tottaly sucks, is not being able to get standard rings.
Sorry, but filing/grinding oversized for ring end-gap don't cut it. Changes the ring tension/load and any longgivity is out the window.
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81H Venturer1100 "The Bentley" (on steroids) 97 Yamaha YZ250(age reducer) 92 Honda ST1100 "Twisty"(touring rocket) Age is relative to the number of seconds counted 'airing' out an 85ft. table-top.
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  #5  
Old 07-27-2014, 10:40 PM
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Motoman, you're absolutely right, I shouldn't have honed the bores!

The original "plan" was to hone and re-ring with new standard rings but I wound up with 1st oversize rings instead of standards. I had to put the old rings back in and wing it for the rally but from the oil consumption and the lack of mosquitoes anywhere in the general vicinity of where I was riding, especially going back down Pike's Peak! that plan didn't exactly pan out.

Rover, I might try a Wiseco kit with the bad jugs from "Bush", my '79SF.

Boring this particular set of XJ11 jugs would be kind of wierd because it still has the YICS manifold on it and some of the cooling fins on the outer cylinders were broken in the wreck that destroyed the donor bike. One of the broken fins was properly heliarced and it's good, the other fin broke when I was cleaning and stripping the black paint off the jugs before the rally. I epoxied that one back on with JB Weld, then repainted with aluminum paint.

So, they're ugly; can't use the YICS manifold; only value was in the low original mileage and I totally stepped on my own crank with that but I'll dig into the spare parts pile and find something that'll work even better, I'm sure of it!

.
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1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #6  
Old 07-27-2014, 10:45 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Phase View Post
Rover, I might try a Wiseco kit with the bad jugs from "Bush", my '79SF.
Hey Scott,

Save yourself a few hundred bucks and get the ~$150.00 set of 1196 pistons from eBay/Japan instead of "Wiseco"...they work just fine, ask ViperRon.

T.C.
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  #7  
Old 07-27-2014, 11:00 PM
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3Phase 3Phase is offline
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T.C.,

I've been trying to reduce fuel consumption but boring oversize could be fun too!

I've given some serious thought (well over a year now) to the flat-top, cast pistons. I decided that if I go with an overbore I'll just bite the bullet and get a Wiseco 1196 Big Bore or see if I can find a hen's tooth 1172 Little Big Bore kit somewhere, then re-re-refresh the aging crankshaft mains and rods before I break something... like, uh -- me!

.
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-- Scott
_____

1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #8  
Old 07-28-2014, 03:27 AM
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Scott
Those cylinders can be used for the 1196 overbore kit. I am very satisfied with the kit I put in. I will be happy to walk you threw what you need to discuss with the shop that does the boring work. You will defiantly need some one with a bore machine to cut them as it does remove a lot of material. My gas mileage improved when I put in the kit. Let me know and I'll send you a PM with all the info. , The 1196 kit is the best deal considering what you will spend getting Yamaha pistons, rings, and gasket. You can not just hone the cylinders and put oversize rings with same pistons in because if you exceed the max piston to bore gap then the pistons will eventually develop piston skirt slap noise that you will not like either. It will run fine not burn oil but the intermittent noise will keep you asking what is that?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khm6...liHntN91DHjHiS
1980 G Silverbird
Original Yamaha Fairfing and Bags
1198 Overbore kit
Grizzly 660 ACCT
Barnett Clutch Springs
R1 Clutch Fiber Plates
122.5 Main Jets
ACCT Mod
Mac 4-2 Flare Tips
Antivibe Bar ends
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http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z329/viperron1/
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  #9  
Old 07-28-2014, 07:52 AM
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A few years ago there was talk about getting standard size rings from http://www.hastingsmfg.com/ I don't remember what car they were from. The two compression rings were perfect fit. The oil rings were not but the pistons could be machined to fit the new slightly wider oil rings. Maybe someone can find the thread. I know this probably doesn't help you now. Maybe if your cylinders would be ok if honed or maybe you could find a used good cylinder???
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  #10  
Old 07-28-2014, 08:21 AM
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You can replace individual cylinders if you can find a good ring set and put original pistons in them.
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To fix the problem one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.

Rodan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khm6...liHntN91DHjHiS
1980 G Silverbird
Original Yamaha Fairfing and Bags
1198 Overbore kit
Grizzly 660 ACCT
Barnett Clutch Springs
R1 Clutch Fiber Plates
122.5 Main Jets
ACCT Mod
Mac 4-2 Flare Tips
Antivibe Bar ends
Rear trunk add-on
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z329/viperron1/
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  #11  
Old 07-28-2014, 02:18 PM
Murrayf Murrayf is offline
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why not get one sleeve

and a set of these

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-XS110...e0cad2&vxp=mtr
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  #12  
Old 07-28-2014, 03:34 PM
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Murrayf
The issue with putting in the standard factory rings in any of these cylinders is after honing I am pretty sure they would not fit the specification. It does not take much wear on cylinders much less honing to make the rings to were the ring gap is too high and that causes oil to burn and low compression. Along with that if you go to second oversize rings you would have to cut all of them to fit but more so if there is too much gap between piston and cylinder the rings will seat and before long allow the piston to rock back and forth causing skirt slap which can be very annoying because it comes and goes.
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To fix the problem one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.

Rodan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khm6...liHntN91DHjHiS
1980 G Silverbird
Original Yamaha Fairfing and Bags
1198 Overbore kit
Grizzly 660 ACCT
Barnett Clutch Springs
R1 Clutch Fiber Plates
122.5 Main Jets
ACCT Mod
Mac 4-2 Flare Tips
Antivibe Bar ends
Rear trunk add-on
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z329/viperron1/
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  #13  
Old 07-28-2014, 03:57 PM
Murrayf Murrayf is offline
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so why not bore the stock thick wall sleeves out as needed (1/32 or less)

get a pair of mellings thin wall diesel sleeves that are the right bore

and cut them in half like i do for a cx500 so you have 4 the right length

install them and finish cut the top

then finish bore and hone them to minimum size based on factory proffered

skirt clearance and fit std rings after end gap check

its a bit of work but any machine shop worth a D__m can do it

if they have a good boring bar and sleeve cutting head

and a press
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  #14  
Old 07-28-2014, 05:39 PM
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3Phase 3Phase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murrayf View Post
... so why not bore the stock thick wall sleeves out as needed (1/32 or less)
Cost, labor, time and aggravation, plus there is no particular need to go to those lengths to get a running engine.


I don't have a shop with professional measuring, cutting, boring, honing and plateauing equipment but I can find a running bike, a used engine or at the very least some matched parts that are ready to drop in and go for less than $200. The folks at a machine shop would have very theatric apoplectic coronaries whilst piteously protesting about their starving children if I asked them to look at a set of uncut sleeves, jugs and pistons for less than $200, much less actually, you know, touch stuff and expect it to work reliably for more than 75,000 miles.

.
__________________
-- Scott
_____

1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #15  
Old 07-28-2014, 08:34 PM
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You are correct 3Phase it would probably cost the 150 for japan kit 25 shipping 200-250 boring by a good shop and I can not say how much for the sleeving suggested I can guarantee that you can find good sleeves and rings somewhere cheaper but let me know if I can be of help if you do the Japan kit.
__________________
To fix the problem one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.

Rodan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khm6...liHntN91DHjHiS
1980 G Silverbird
Original Yamaha Fairfing and Bags
1198 Overbore kit
Grizzly 660 ACCT
Barnett Clutch Springs
R1 Clutch Fiber Plates
122.5 Main Jets
ACCT Mod
Mac 4-2 Flare Tips
Antivibe Bar ends
Rear trunk add-on
http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z329/viperron1/
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