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  #1  
Old 09-02-2013, 07:43 PM
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3Phase 3Phase is offline
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Post Exploded Transmission, Gears, Bearings, and Shims

This is a view exploded of a 1982 Yamaha XJ1100J transmission case that has been separated from its engine.

The clutch looks like it might be a little noisy but the transmission input shaft, the shift drum with the oil pump idler gear, and the transmission output shaft with the right-hand single-row bearing and spacer shim are clearly visible.




.
Look! A brand new starfish washer!

I wonder if this transmission will slip in 2nd gear but first I'll have to make sure dots on the shift levers are properly aligned.




.
This right-hand transmission bearing definitely had a shim pressed into the case along with the bearing.




.
There are two washers and a snap-ring on the shift drum and oil pump idler gear shaft.

From this angle I can't quite see if the snap-ring is installed bevel side out or straight side out.
I'll have to remove the shift drum and the shaft but it seems to be stuck in the transmission case.




.
A special tool is used to free the shift drum and oil pump idler gear shaft from the left-hand side of the transmission case.




.
The snap-ring was installed straight side out and bevel side facing the washer and the oil pump idler gear.

It's a good thing I checked because if the snap-ring was installed the other way around then the snap-ring and the washer might have fallen off of the shaft and into the oil pan and that would have been a disaster!




.
A better view of the right-hand transmission output shaft bearing, its shim and its retaining c-clip. I wonder if the 'special' flanged bolt has a shim too and if it was correctly torqued to 51 ft/lb.




.
Yes, the 'special' flanged bolt was torqued to 51 ft/lb and there are two shims:
The larger shim is for the bearing, the smaller shim is for the 'special' flanged bolt.

Why would Yamaha need to add two shims to the right-hand transmission output shaft bearing and the 'special' flange bolt ?




.
Why would Yamaha need to add two shims to the right-hand transmission output shaft bearing and the 'special' flange bolt ? Because they changed the bearing, that's why!

The new single-row ball is a common KOYO 6205SZ.
The old double-row ball is KOYO 4205.

Sometime during the 1980 XS1100G and XS1100SG model year Yamaha substituted a single-row ball bearing for the original double-row ball bearing. A single-row ball is skinnier than a double-row ball so it had to be shimmed or Yamaha would have had to redesign the right-hand side of the transmission case and make a new 'special' flanged bolt for the new bearing.




.
From the old Yamaha bearing part number: 93304-20504-00
the old right-hand transmission output shaft bearing was a KOYO 4205 double-row deep-groove ball bearing. It was a better bearing too.

The outer race of this substituted KOYO 6205 single-row deep-groove ball bearing that replaced the 4205 has discolored and started to turn blue. This bearing only has 14,000 miles on it and already looks hot, tired, and overworked.

It makes me wonder how the skinny little 6205 bearing in my '80G looks after all the miles I've put on it.





Well now, that was fun!

.
__________________
-- Scott
_____

1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2013, 08:03 PM
motoman motoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Phase View Post
This is a view exploded of a 1982 Yamaha XJ1100J transmission case that has been separated from its engine.

The clutch looks like it might be a little noisy but the transmission input shaft, the shift drum with the oil pump idler gear, and the transmission output shaft with the right-hand single-row bearing and spacer shim are clearly visible.




.
Look! A brand new starfish washer!

I wonder if this transmission will slip in 2nd gear but first I'll have to make sure dots on the shift levers are properly aligned.




.
This right-hand transmission bearing definitely had a shim pressed into the case along with the bearing.




.
There are two washers and a snap-ring on the shift drum and oil pump idler gear shaft.

From this angle I can't quite see if the snap-ring is installed bevel side out or straight side out.
I'll have to remove the shift drum and the shaft but it seems to be stuck in the transmission case.




.
A special tool is used to free the shift drum and oil pump idler gear shaft from the left-hand side of the transmission case.




.
The snap-ring was installed straight side out and bevel side facing the washer and the oil pump idler gear.

It's a good thing I checked because if the snap-ring was installed the other way around then the snap-ring and the washer might have fallen off of the shaft and into the oil pan and that would have been a disaster!




.
A better view of the right-hand transmission output shaft bearing, its shim and its retaining c-clip. I wonder if the 'special' flanged bolt has a shim too and if it was correctly torqued to 51 ft/lb.




.
Yes, the 'special' flanged bolt was torqued to 51 ft/lb and there are two shims:
The larger shim is for the bearing, the smaller shim is for the 'special' flanged bolt.

Why would Yamaha need to add two shims to the right-hand transmission output shaft bearing and the 'special' flange bolt ?




.
Why would Yamaha need to add two shims to the right-hand transmission output shaft bearing and the 'special' flange bolt ? Because they changed the bearing, that's why!

The new single-row ball is a common KOYO 6205SZ.
The old double-row ball is KOYO 4205.

Sometime during the 1980 XS1100G and XS1100SG model year Yamaha substituted a single-row ball bearing for the original double-row ball bearing. A single-row ball is skinnier than a double-row ball so it had to be shimmed or Yamaha would have had to redesign the right-hand side of the transmission case and make a new 'special' flanged bolt for the new bearing.




.
From the old Yamaha bearing part number: 93304-20504-00
the old right-hand transmission output shaft bearing was a KOYO 4205 double-row deep-groove ball bearing. It was a better bearing too.

The outer race of this substituted KOYO 6205 single-row deep-groove ball bearing that replaced the 4205 has discolored and started to turn blue. This bearing only has 14,000 miles on it and already looks hot, tired, and overworked.

It makes me wonder how the skinny little 6205 bearing in my '80G looks after all the miles I've put on it.





Well now, that was fun!

.
Unlikely a diasaster, as You know I rode mine two yrs. like that. So that's the XJ motor/bike that took a headlong dive that you aquired. So sad, as the motor apparently had just been professionally rebuilt.
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2013, 09:14 PM
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donebysunday donebysunday is offline
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As Stated

Bad things can happen, they did.
Can we figure why ?
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  #4  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post
Unlikely a diasaster, as You know I rode mine two yrs. like that. So that's the XJ motor/bike that took a headlong dive that you aquired. So sad, as the motor apparently had just been professionally rebuilt.
Brant, that's part of what's left of it, yep.

From the color, texture and general ate-up-ness factor of the outer surface of the bearing outer race and the aluminum case it looks like the bearing had started to spin in its hole some time before it was wrecked; no idea how long that had been going on but not too long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donebysunday View Post
Bad things can happen, they did.
Can we figure why ?
In this particular case yes.

Aaron, the previous owner from whom I purchased the XJ, is fine and that's all that matters.

The XJ? It's just metal and the transmission made a great visual aid.

The engine case was cracked open like an egg shell just behind the cylinders and above the Primary shaft. The only thing holding the engine to the transmission was the Hy-Vo chain and one bolt in what was left of the oil pan along with a wire from the Oil Level Warning Light sensor.

Aaron just got the bike back from Planedick after some transmission work and he'd had new brakes and tires put on. While he was in the slow lane of the freeway he was rear-ended by a kid zig-zagging around traffic at a high rate of speed and the bike was blasted out from under him. He was only slightly injured, mostly shaken up, but he was charged almost $20,000 for the ambulance ride and the emergency room.

Think about that the next time y'all buys a hel-mutt, ridin' duds, assyurinse, bitty-pawts, tars, awls an' such lahk.

Dead Rocket

Picture Slideshow


I just looked at the picture of the XJ's speedometer again and I see that it had 18,199.9 miles on the clock, not 14,000. <shrug> That skinny bearing is toast and it was toasted before the wreck, not after, at 14,000 miles or 18,200 miles.

.
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-- Scott
_____

1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #5  
Old 09-03-2013, 05:52 AM
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Very interesting and entertaining Scott.

You think maybe the bluing on that bearing could just be because of the hardening process during manufacturing?

I just was looking at the parts fiche and even though the late 80 and the 81xs shows the extra shims it still shows the old bearing #. The new # doesn't show until going to the 82xj pic. I wonder if the new bearing comes with the collar, since it's no longer available.

I've got one of those special tools shown in your pics myself.
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80 SG Ol' Okie;79 engine & carbs w/pods, 45 pilots, 140 mains, Custom Mac 4 into 2 exhaust, ACCT,XS850 final drive,110/90/19 front tire,TKat fork brace, XS750 140 MPH speedometer, Vetter IV fairing, aftermarket hard bags and trunk, LG high back seat, XJ rear shocks.

The list changes.
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  #6  
Old 09-03-2013, 07:18 AM
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I've got one of those special tools laying right next to the SH just in case the gears and shift pawls don't fit right, everyone should have one, very handy !!!!!
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76 XS650 C ROADSTER
80 XS650 G Special II
https://ibb.co/album/icbGgF
80 XS 1100 SG
81 XS 1100LH/SH DARKHORSE
https://tinyurl.com/k6nzvtw
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  #7  
Old 09-03-2013, 09:23 AM
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Looking at those pics, I feel like I need to stand and put my right hand over my heart...
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You can live to be 100, as long as you give up everything that would make you want to live to be 100!

Current bikes:
'06 Suzuki DR650
*'82 XJ1100 with the 1179 kit. "Mad Maxim"
'82 XJ1100 Completely stock fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Bagger fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Motor/frame and lots of boxes of parts
'82 XJ1100 Parts bike
'81 XS1100 Special
'81 YZ250
'80 XS850 Special
'80 XR100
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:57 AM
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Also, if you're that far into one, it seems like you could go back with a double roller bearing on the gear shaft if you just left that spacer out? The cases should be the same for all years. I just don't know if that bearing is still available, though you should be able to rder any size bearing if you look hard enough.
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Try your hardest to be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

You can live to be 100, as long as you give up everything that would make you want to live to be 100!

Current bikes:
'06 Suzuki DR650
*'82 XJ1100 with the 1179 kit. "Mad Maxim"
'82 XJ1100 Completely stock fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Bagger fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Motor/frame and lots of boxes of parts
'82 XJ1100 Parts bike
'81 XS1100 Special
'81 YZ250
'80 XS850 Special
'80 XR100
*Crashed/Totalled, still own
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  #9  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbig View Post
Also, if you're that far into one, it seems like you could go back with a double roller bearing on the gear shaft if you just left that spacer out? The cases should be the same for all years. I just don't know if that bearing is still available, though you should be able to rder any size bearing if you look hard enough.
The old bearings are obsolete and unavilable but the new ones are available and so are the bearing spacers. The washer on the bolt isn't though. That's why I was wondering if it came with the bearing.
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Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

― Albert Einstein

80 SG Ol' Okie;79 engine & carbs w/pods, 45 pilots, 140 mains, Custom Mac 4 into 2 exhaust, ACCT,XS850 final drive,110/90/19 front tire,TKat fork brace, XS750 140 MPH speedometer, Vetter IV fairing, aftermarket hard bags and trunk, LG high back seat, XJ rear shocks.

The list changes.
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  #10  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:23 AM
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There's a bearing supply house near here that says they can match any bearing you have. Anyone have a double row bearing from the older trans I could take to them or give them measurements ? Then we could all replace our crappy single row bearings. Done };~)
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https://ibb.co/album/icbGgF
80 XS 1100 SG
81 XS 1100LH/SH DARKHORSE
https://tinyurl.com/k6nzvtw
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  #11  
Old 09-03-2013, 01:04 PM
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3Phase 3Phase is offline
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Thumbs up Common Bearing Numbers

The bearing numbers are for common bearings. The prefixes and suffixes let you know how it's sized in inches, metric, or European, what kind of material the bearings are made of, any special build notes and the intended applications: ball, needle, tapered roller, ball and needle, steel, ceramic, metal shield(s), rubber seals, open with no shields, permanently lubricated, dry moly coated, clean room, outer space, and so on and so forth.

Contrary to Yamaha's most fervent desires the entire planet does not stop using a common bearing just because Yamaha stopped using them. If you want to spend a few bucks get a KOYO or similar 4205 deep-groove double-row steel ball bearing. If you want to spend a few hundred bucks get a KOYO ceramic or EXSEV 6205. The Yamaha R1 and other modern sport bikes use modern, sealed, permanently lubricated ceramic bearings. Some folks try to save money and buy the hybrid bearings with ceramic balls and steel races.


The only problem with replacing the single-row with a double-row bearing in the XS11/XJ11 transmission is getting the bearing out of the case without mangling the case.

When I had the cases split on Columbo I tried to swap in a good double-row from another engine but I couldn't get the bearing out of the case without using a torch or the special tool. I think it involves heating the aluminum case and pressing/tapping out the old bearing and putting in the new bearing but I'd get shot, dragged through the streets, hung, drawn, quartered, then shot a couple more times after I was nuked from orbit (it's the only way to be sure!) and then severely chastised if I even thought about putting an engine case in the oven.


As for that ate-up skinny 6205 bearing, KOYO would never let something that looked anything like it even get near a window or a door just in case someone saw it or it somehow escaped into the outside world:

.
The right-hand transmission case, output shaft snap-ring, bearing, and the precision-ground cast iron 3mm shim. The shim is beveled. The narrow side seats against the outer bearing race and the wide side seats against the aluminum case.

The bearing and case show discoloration from heat and light scoring from the bearing beginning to turn in the bore.

The 'special' flanged bolt is not shown but it has a precision ground 3mm steel shim so the KOYO 6205SZ single-row ball bearing substituted for the 4205 double-row ball bearing requires 6mm of shims to keep the gear stack aligned correctly in the transmission case.




.
Tod, I think this is your favorite bearing.

The clutch with its custom inspection port for the frictions and steels on the right-hand transmission input shaft.

The pinned and ringed double-row ball bearing has a lot of bluing at multiple hot spots on the outside of the outer bearing race but no scoring or scuffing from movement. The bearing is an NTN bearing but I can't read the number without removing the clutch.

The aluminum case is not shown but aside from being shattered into several pieces from the wreck the bearing bore has no damage from heat or bearing movement.





.
__________________
-- Scott
_____

1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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  #12  
Old 09-03-2013, 06:07 PM
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trbig trbig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Phase View Post
Tod, I think this is your favorite bearing.


What, THIS bearing?












Yeah, one of those love/hate kinda things I think.
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Try your hardest to be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

You can live to be 100, as long as you give up everything that would make you want to live to be 100!

Current bikes:
'06 Suzuki DR650
*'82 XJ1100 with the 1179 kit. "Mad Maxim"
'82 XJ1100 Completely stock fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Bagger fixer-upper
'82 XJ1100 Motor/frame and lots of boxes of parts
'82 XJ1100 Parts bike
'81 XS1100 Special
'81 YZ250
'80 XS850 Special
'80 XR100
*Crashed/Totalled, still own
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  #13  
Old 09-03-2013, 07:48 PM
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TopCatGr58 TopCatGr58 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Phase View Post
From the color, texture and general ate-up-ness factor of the outer surface of the bearing outer race and the aluminum case it looks like the bearing had started to spin in its hole some time before it was wrecked; no idea how long that had been going on but not too long.

snip

Aaron just got the bike back from Planedick after some transmission work and he'd had new brakes and tires put on.

snip

I just looked at the picture of the XJ's speedometer again and I see that it had 18,199.9 miles on the clock, not 14,000. <shrug> That skinny bearing is toast and it was toasted before the wreck, not after, at 14,000 miles or 18,200 miles.

.
Hey Scott,

I'm no engineer, but isn't one of the reasons why a bearing would burn up would be the lack of lubrication/oil? You said he had just had some transmission work on it. I don't have a copy of the oil flow chart for our engine handy, but I would suspect that the oil wasn't getting to that bearing adequately. Same kind of thing happened to Tod's clutch bearing with the wrong sized thrust washer that blocked the bearings access to oil! Perhaps one of the small oil ports that feeds that bearing got blocked?

I haven't heard of anyone else having a blown engine/tranny with the newer skinnier bearing, so perhaps it was a rare incident?? JAT!

T.C.
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  #14  
Old 09-03-2013, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopCatGr58 View Post
Hey Scott,

I'm no engineer, but isn't one of the reasons why a bearing would burn up would be the lack of lubrication/oil? You said he had just had some transmission work on it. I don't have a copy of the oil flow chart for our engine handy, but I would suspect that the oil wasn't getting to that bearing adequately. Same kind of thing happened to Tod's clutch bearing with the wrong sized thrust washer that blocked the bearings access to oil! Perhaps one of the small oil ports that feeds that bearing got blocked?

I haven't heard of anyone else having a blown engine/tranny with the newer skinnier bearing, so perhaps it was a rare incident?? JAT!

T.C.
Good point TC!
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:07 PM
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Thumbs up

Yes, Tod, THAT bearing!

The bearing in this engine has large and small light blue and deep blue spots all over it at various points around the outer race in roughly two 'tracks' that follow the two internal bearing grooves. The colors don't photograph very well and I had to angle the camera over the clutch basket so the light wouldn't completely wash out all of the colors and make the bearing look like a normal steel bearing with light reflecting off of it.


T.C., there is no oil gallery or feed hole for 4205/6205 the transmission bearing, it's splash/mist lubricated by the oil fed through the shaft/axle to the gear stack. There is nothing at all between the bearing and the oil bath except the steel retaining snap-ring and it's the same ID and OD as the bearing outer race so it can't do anything except keep the bearing from crawling out of the bore.

This is the first time I've really looked at any of these parts and there are just too many bearings and other parts/places with blue and/or straw discoloration, light scoring, very light pitting, and/or a roasted fine oil patina. Even though there really isn't much left of the case it looks to me like the engine was allowed to run low on oil and ridden HARD! or the oil was neglected and not changed.

Planedick did a superb job on the 1st and 4th gear fix. 2nd and 5th weren't touched and they're are in great shape but could use the washer swap.

.
__________________
-- Scott
_____

1982 XJ1100J: "Baby" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1980 XS1100G: "Columbo" SS Brakes, '850 FD, ACCT
1979 XS1100SF: "Bush" W.I.P.
2018 Heritage Softail Classic 117 FLHCS SE: "Nanuk"
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