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Old 05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
XSessiveForce79 XSessiveForce79 is offline
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need some input

just did some work on my 79 F. does not start now.it has always started well. here is how it happened, hope you have the fix.
my bike is 1979 F model. Wiseco 1196 kit (been running this for 4 years,no problems) carbs bumped up, Dynatek 30K coils..no ballast. repaired the coil pick ups twice. upgraded the fuse box to blades. So...this spring I decided to go Tubeless up front( new Elite III , and rim from my '80 ),found my steering stem bearings to be shot...So replaced the complete set. changed forks from the '80 again ( air / oil )...and decided to swap cam chain tensioner to ACCT.
read all the post on ones that work and settled on one from an 83 XV, got it on ebay from a shop in Spokane.looked good...rachet worked , everything fine. Read up on the swap...and followed what a member said.
center stand...timing cover off...spark plugs out...turned it over by hand ( 6mm wrench ) clockwise a few times , till I got it dead on the " C " at the pointer. Removed the old manual CCT...cleaned up the mount area and used RTV to gasket it...removed the spring and bolt assembly from the ACCT.pushed the plunger in all the way and mounted the ACCT to the bike. Holes lined up perfect.mounted it SNUG.then put the spring assembly in...heard it push out the plunger...tightened it good then tightened the last turn on the ACCT to the engine. Then turned it by hand several times to check for ?? something obvious or horrible ?? got all the parts back on the bike , mounted the tank. I have velocity stacks and am quite certain I hooked up the fuel lines right ( the atmosphere vent hoses are the top Ts ) anyhow.....does not start now. sounds like it wants to just a lil...but not very close. This has never been an issue. wondering how I screwed up the ACCT swap...it sounded like a fairly simple swap. H E L P ! very thankful for any advice.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:52 PM
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tcoop tcoop is offline
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First thing to check is to make sure the timing marks on the Cams line up when the T is lined up.

Second thing is to make sure there is gas in the carbs (I forgot to set to prime once and ran the battery down trying to get it to start)

Third thing make sure you still have spark. Could have unpluged something with out realizing it

It does not have to be in that order but it is some where to start.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:52 PM
crazy steve crazy steve is offline
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You're probably off on the cam timing... look here: http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35434
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'80SG restified, red SOLD
'79F parts...
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:55 PM
XSessiveForce79 XSessiveForce79 is offline
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Timing is off

pulled the VC and plugs. turned the motor by hand CC 3 times. lined up the T with the pointer. the marks do not line up. The exhaust cam the dot is at about the " 12:15 " spot. as in about 3/16 ths of an inch to the right of the the mark . The intake is at about the " 11:00 " spot or about 3/4 s of inch to the left of the mark. so why are they off like this and is that a lot and what are the chances of bent valves? what is my next step here?
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:38 PM
crazy steve crazy steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XSessiveForce79 View Post
... so why are they off like this and is that a lot and what are the chances of bent valves? what is my next step here?
When you removed the OEM tensioner, the cam chain 'slipped' on the crank sprocket. The fact that they're off by different amounts is a bit strange, it's possible your cam timing was already wrong some. I doubt if you bent valves, but there's no easy way to tell until you fix the cam timing. The fact that it's 'trying' to start makes me think the valves are good.

The fix? Follow the procedure in the link, although you don't need to remove the cams. But you do need to remove the cam sprockets and turn the cams (ONLY enough to line up the marks) to the marks then reinstall the sprockets.
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'78E original owner - resto project
'78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
'82 XJ rebuild project
'80SG restified, red SOLD
'79F parts...
'81H more parts...

Other current bikes:
'93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
'86 XL883/1200 Chopper
'82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...
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  #6  
Old 05-13-2013, 05:59 PM
XSessiveForce79 XSessiveForce79 is offline
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ok I can do this ...

Thanks Steve. I'm going to give this a try. I may be asking questions ,I am not sure,but I see this as the crank position and Cam chain are fine? , the ACCT is fine?...I just have to turn the cams dots to the marks and attach the sprockets.no pulling guides? or ACCT? or chain? can I just remove say the exhaust cam sprocket...turn the cam ..re attach the sprocket. then do the same for the intake. keeping the chain on the whole time? never done this before.sorry about the questions ahead of time. I will digest the picture post you sent the link on. BUT I am sure I will be back soon.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:15 PM
crazy steve crazy steve is offline
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You'll have to remove the ACCT and upper chain guide to get enough slack in the chain to do this. What you're trying to do is move the sprocket 1-2 teeth in relationship to the chain.

Put the timing mark on the 'T' mark, if you can see the cam marks turn the motor one more turn. Remove two of the sprocket bolts, then turn the motor one turn again. With the 'T' on the timing mark, you should see the cam marks also. Now remove the other two sprocket bolts, the ACCT, and the chain guide. Turn the cams to the marks, then 'adjust' the sprockets in the chain until the bolt holes line up. Make sure the chain is on the crank sprocket, reinstall the guide and ACCT, then turn the motor to check your timing. It can be a bit 'fiddly', it may take more than one try but really isn't that hard.
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Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

'78E original owner - resto project
'78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
'82 XJ rebuild project
'80SG restified, red SOLD
'79F parts...
'81H more parts...

Other current bikes:
'93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
'86 XL883/1200 Chopper
'82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...
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  #8  
Old 05-15-2013, 12:51 AM
XSessiveForce79 XSessiveForce79 is offline
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more frustration

so I turned the motor over by hand clockwise several times,plugs out,and lined up the "T" saw the cam marks,rotated clockwise to "T" again,removed cam sprocket bolts.
rotated clockwise to "T" again, removed other bolts.making sure the crank did not turn off the "T"...pulled up chain with mechanics wire to keep it tensioned.
removed ACCT and then upper guide .pulled exh. sprocket loose.turned exh. cam to dead on the mark...adjusted chain on sprocket...keeping chain tension. put in 1st sprocket bolts.
repeated for intake.
reinstalled ACCT.BODY ONLY,plunger racheted in all the way.then the spring.
reinstalled the upper guide.
turned the motor clockwise to "T" again. heard rachet adjust out on ACCT plunger. and put in 2nd sprocket bolts.


turned motor over clockwise several times by hand. the cam marks were both about a 16th of an inch to the left of the marks.
feeling good.....

used the right stuff on the valve cover, put the plugs,wires and exhaust back on and went to start on cold start circuit. fired right up!
yeah good times!

smoking bad out of the exhaust...let it warm up.30 seconds. go to middle circuit. still smoking ..bad.. let it warm for about 3-4 minutes. still smoking.
no obvious noises...rev it..slow to respond,jerky.but revs like it wants to run down the road.
I shut it off,and restart in about a min. fires right up.

kill it and wait about 5mins. , pull the plugs, plugs don't look fouled...maybe even lean. the pipes looked like they were burning hot,blue.

wait about 10mins and do a compression check...crank for each cylinder about 5 revolutions,throttle wide open.
#1 130lbs ,#2 130lbs ,#3 90lbs ,#4 130lbs

done for today...what do you think ?
I didn't check the valve clearances . could that be the problem ?
previously ( before ACCT swap ) I had checked compression cold,without the throttle open and got
60,60,60,90...
did I screw this up? BTW will my 1980 head work on this 79 ( wiseco 1196 ) ?
any help here , I am very grateful for...trying to remain hopeful.
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  #9  
Old 05-15-2013, 01:41 AM
crazy steve crazy steve is offline
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The fact that compression came up makes me think that your existing cam timing was off. And I've seen a valve adjustment bring compression up also, so if you don't know the last time it was done or what the clearances are it's worth doing....

Your timing marks sound good; within 1/16" is close enough, the marks aren't that precise.

Now, if your cam timing was off and the bike was rejetted with it like that, your jetting will now be wrong. And probably lean... so looking at that is definitely called for.

The compression 'spec' called for in the FSM is 142 PSI, +/- 10%. IMO this number is low, I've seen typical numbers in the 160-190 range on motors in good shape. But your numbers aren't bad, the bike will run fine, just won't have the power higher number give. Again, a valve adjustment may improve them a lot.
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'78E original owner - resto project
'78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
'82 XJ rebuild project
'80SG restified, red SOLD
'79F parts...
'81H more parts...

Other current bikes:
'93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
'86 XL883/1200 Chopper
'82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...
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  #10  
Old 05-15-2013, 08:22 AM
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bikerphil bikerphil is offline
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Nine times out of ten the smoking will clear up after some use. It could be crap in the exhaust system burning off or the rings are still stuck from the bike sitting a while.
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  #11  
Old 05-15-2013, 08:30 AM
XSessiveForce79 XSessiveForce79 is offline
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so I didn't break it?!?!

Thanks Steve ! My next job valve adjustment.and re jet. what about the # 3 cylinder ? 90 lbs is the best I get. also why the crazy smoke out the exhaust ? so I think I will get the Pro Tool for the adjustments....the whole sprocket and chain thing almost gave me a heart attack. hopefully the tool works for me ,I hear different accounts on the success of people using it.
so.. let me see,first adjust the valves...then sync? then re-jet? also where is the best place to get shims ? my Yamaha dealers parts dept. is very lame,no experience,and no parts . unless of course my bike is less than 10 years old.
this bike gives me fits sometimes...but I am hooked !
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:40 AM
XSessiveForce79 XSessiveForce79 is offline
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wouldn't that be great !

I hope the smoke is just that...I have never even had the valve cover off before so any measurements or adjustments are WAY overdue. I would like to burn out old crap, it was a long winter. I need to ride. hopefully I can manage to get the valves and carbs right. don't have any experience on these valves. You guys have the know how, I just have to take my time and get it right. Thanks again !
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:29 PM
XSessiveForce79 XSessiveForce79 is offline
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valve clearance measurements

here is what I get,

Intake : #1 .003 , #2 .005 , #3 .005 , #4 .003

Exhaust : #1 .004 , #2 .004 , #3 .004 , #4 .004

checked cold. cam lobe pointing away from lifter...inline with valve stem direction.

I took the measurement as: either it fit through, even with some drag.
or, it did not fit through at all

so they all need replacement , right ?

getting the motion pro tool tomorrow.
looks like I have to buy a whole kit ?

any suggestions.....??
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:49 PM
crazy steve crazy steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XSessiveForce79 View Post
so they all need replacement , right ?
Maybe, maybe not....

What you'll usually find is there's different sizes fitted at different valves, and once you know what you have/need, you can swap around some of the existing and only have to get 2-3 'new' ones.

Remembering that each shim size change equals .002", you need two one size smaller, two two sizes smaller for the intakes, and four three sizes smaller for the exhaust. This will put you at/near the 'top' of the early spec. So if you find a 280 shim on one exhaust, that needs to drop to a 265 for correct clearance. The shim number goes up/down by 5 for each size. You won't know what sizes are in there until you pull them and look.

You can buy new online, but many metric dealers will have a selection of used shims they'll exchange/sell, so try that. Ask the service department, not parts (parts will want to sell you new ones). They're 29mm shims, and fit more than just the XS..

And I will say that with the valves that tight, you should see a compression increase with adjustment....
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Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

'78E original owner - resto project
'78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
'82 XJ rebuild project
'80SG restified, red SOLD
'79F parts...
'81H more parts...

Other current bikes:
'93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
'86 XL883/1200 Chopper
'82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...

Last edited by crazy steve; 05-17-2013 at 10:56 PM.
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